Nutrition and agronomy may seem too technical for any beginner’s out there to fully understand. John O’Brion provides an easy to follow guidebook, From Soil To Success, that lays down all the basics minus the complications. Giving you another perspective on nutrition, he explains and helps correct those perceived misconceptions and common pitfalls people make when it comes to buying their products. John further goes down into seed composition as he talks about the essence of coated seeds and why it is so. He shares some of his experiences in hunting and looks ahead into interesting forages.
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On this episode, we’re going to hear from John O’Brion. John hails from Madison, Wisconsin. He’s the owner of Grandpa Ray Outdoors. It’s more than a company that sells seed in minerals. John is a teacher. He’s got a huge experience, resume, whatever you want to call it, in agronomics. He knows cattle, he knows sheep, and he knows everything about raising great animals. Along the way, the Whitetail world blew up. He’s taking all that knowledge and applying to Whitetail deer. John is going to share a lot of what I call big buck nuggets.
Listen to the podcast here:
Grows Big Whitetails with John O’Brion
It’s hunting season and I’m headed to Madison, Wisconsin and connecting with John O’Brion. John is the owner of Grandpa Ray Outdoors. John, welcome to the show.
I appreciate being here, as usual, Bruce.
I’m excited about your book. You’ve got a book coming out. Let’s jump into it. Let’s talk about the name of the book, where they’re going to be able to get it and why you wrote the book.
The book is called From Soil To Success. I’ve been doing nutrition and agronomy in the seed industry for over 25 years. I’m all about education. I’ve always been focused on consulting. The book I wrote to give people a different look at nutrition. I’m a nutritionist first and foremost, but yet I wrote a book on the soil. I do have dealers around the US that I am looking to set up more dealers. Each dealer will have my book. My website is www.GrandpaRayOutdoors.com. In the cart there in the area where I have my food plots, seed minerals and other products, you will purchase the book through there. It might be a great gift for your family, husband, wife, kids, and friends. I wrote it with my theme, which is educating the public.
Talk about the chapters. How is it laid out?
It’s going to be more like a guidebook. What we’re going to do is we’ll give people a little bit of a look into my background. We’ll be looking at a lot of the different forages. We will have a section there discussing a lot of different common and less common forages. We’ll be starting with focusing on what is healthy soil. How to create healthy soil? Basic concepts. We’re not going to make this a super technical guidebook where you need to be a rocket scientist to understand where I’m going with it.
We will discuss the different basic nutrients, everything from the majors, the nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus, to the overlooked sulfur, and then also the micronutrients. That’s where my focus has been, not just with the dry products but also the liquids and the foliars. We will be covering every nutrient, talking and showing some different pictures on soils, how pH affects your plant growth and fertilizer uptake. It should be an easy-to-follow book. One for the beginner, it should help educate them on the basic concepts. For the people that have been doing food plots and maybe you’re a farmer, there are little tips in there on things that people overlook. It should be good for everybody.
Maximize and get the most of what we have. Share on XOne thing is just because you’ve got a food plot out there, you want to maximize it. John, as well as a number of other people in the business, they want to help you understand that. Wherever you buy your product, I’m going to throw this out. Don’t be buying your product from big box stores. Don’t do it because there are fillers, there are all different things. You think you’re getting ten pounds? John, what’s the ratio? Is it a 30% loss or more in the seed component?
Commonly, with most coated seeds it’s either 35% but it can be as high as 50%. I’ve posted that numerous times when I’m doing social media posts. Trying to show people, “What are you getting when you buy seed?” For example, I sell a lot of the NRCS mixes and work a lot of people are in the government programs. Any of those prices that I’m quoting, any of the products and formulations that people are sending me. It’s all based on pure, live seed. Wildlife Industry is one of those industries where it’s the opposite.
Most companies are selling coated seed. Yet, when you want to get into a government program, you’re not going to be buying any seed that’s coated to fulfill those requirements. It won’t hit the price point. Yes, the coated seeds are cheaper per pound. If it’s 35%coating, you better be buying those products for 35% less to break even. That’s one of my little pet peeves. I do not sell coated seed. There might be a couple of exceptions because there are a couple great forages I’ve tested. There’s only one main supplier and I might have to suck it up and buy a little bit of coating on unique forage. If at all possible, I do not want to be using coated seed.
John, why are seeds coated?
The people that sell coated seed will never say this but I know growers. I’ve talked to growers. They follow the line and are politically correct, but they grow seed. They ship seed to the coaters, the companies out west that are coating seed for their clients when it’s requested of them. What has happened are common products like alfalfas and clovers, once people start getting it coated, it only costs $0.05 a pound to coat seed. If somebody is buying alfalfa and they’re shipping it to, let’s say Wisconsin from Montana. If you’re buying a coated seed, which if it’s got 35% coating, that’s 700 pounds of coating and you’ve got 1,300 pounds of product. They’re going to be getting it shipped in the door for about $2.30 a pound. Versus if you’re buying the regular, pure, live, uncoated seed, it’s going to be $3 a pound for the exact same variety. Basically, it’s price point. It’s profit.
Some people will say, “Yes, you do have some growth promoters in the coatings.” Here’s my solution. I use an organic growth promoter. I’m the only company that doesn’t use coated seed. They use those inorganic growth promoters. I’m getting everything that they could possibly offer and promote. Yet you’re also getting what you pay for. I want to use natural growth promoters, don’t use coating, and price point does not come into play with what I’m offering. I prefer people to look to find the best genetics and get what you pay for.
What’s the purpose of coating seed? Why are there tons and tons of Ag seed coated?
Like what I brought up, it’s price point. Many people, if you see a bag and you go to look at a big box store, hardware store, wherever you buy seed. If you have a 50-pound bag of alfalfa that says $200 a bag. There are many people who don’t even look at the tag or understand what you’re buying. You could have two bags of seed side by side. One could be $200 a bag that’s uncoated. The other seed next to it could be $180 a bag with 35% coating. What do you think the average person that isn’t as educated when it comes to reading tags? Which big would they buy if they’re basically the same genetic or similar genetic alfalfas? They’re going to buy $180 bag.
They’re getting less product. The one thing I wanted to bring up. One guy told me that the coating helps with the seed slide. If you’re drilling seeds, then it helps it slide and then there are some promoters in that.
There are some seeds that have a coating can also help it flow a little bit when they’re drilling seed. I would venture to say from the people I work with, 90%, 95% of the people are broadcasting their seed versus drilling it. There are always other solutions. There are exceptions to the rule. There are a few cases where coating would help. The only case that I pretty much promote with having a coating on seeds would be sugar beets. Maybe a lot of people have heard me talk. I’m not a big fan of sugar beets. You look at benefit versus costs. The other little things that people will bring up are it could also attract moisture to seed when you have less than ideal conditions.
In my opinion, although I’ve had this conversation with numerous people that are less biased. One in six years, you would probably see a benefit with coated seed if you put them side by side, same lot numbers, same germ count. My solution that I recommend for people to do, use a natural growth promoter that I apply to all seeds that’s a liquid. It’s sprayed on. Guys could apply it before planting or even at planting. It also helps get ruts that help get the seed out of the ground quicker. That’s what I believe is a better solution than using a coating. There’s a time and a place for everything, but there are a few instances where I would recommend somebody to be using coated seed.
Based on what you said, if you’re broadcasting, the coated seed doesn’t have any advantages except what John gave that one instance to. Be a smart person because you don’t realize the billions of dollars are into Whitetail agronomy. Food plots, cover crops and everything that goes along with it. We represent billions of dollars to these industries, so let’s become smart. John’s one of the guys that I know and trust that he’s an educator.
He’s been in the business a long time. Yes, there are other great people out there and hear me on that. There are other great people that are selling seeds and doing a nice job at it. Some of the name brands in the industry. Read the tag and make your own comparison. You’ll find that, “I’m not getting what I thought I’ve got.” You’ve got to be smart. That’s all I’m going to say about that. John, let’s source some hunting in here. What’s your hunt plan for the fall?
In the past, I’ve been busy with my consultant career over the years. In the last year and a half getting Grandpa Ray Outdoors more national. I’m probably going to take some time to myself. I do love living through my customers, seeing them when they’re shooting nice deer, seeing their great food plots. I need some downtime. I love being out in the outdoors. I love seeing a healthy deer. I’m going to take some time to be on the stand. I have laid out a great plan for being out in the various stands that I’ll be sitting in. I got the food sources. We got the water sources being permanent water tanks that I’ve put out there and buried.
We have funnels created. We have screenings created. I have shown some of these pictures on my website and social media where you’re overlooking my deer stand, which has some spiritual feel to it. The name of my business, I named after my grandpa called Grandpa Ray Outdoors. Two of my great bow stands and gun stands are sitting right there near where he always hunted, where I thought was with him and he shot it last year. The last two nice bucks I shot died near his gun stand. When I’m out there hunting, I’m not out there to get a chance at harvesting one of these great deer that we have on the farm. It gives me a lot of memories. I could reflect, relax, and get off the grid a little bit with matches being in total work mode. Great stress relief.
I’ve mentioned this before with my sojourn chasing the bighorn sheep. It was wonderful and unfortunately, it wasn’t off the grid because I was working every evening if I could keep my eyes open. Once they get to Wi-Fi, but spending some time. I call it God’s cathedral, over 12,000 feet and it’s an unbelievable adventure experience. I feel closer to God when I’m in those places because there’s no other clutter. It’s me, what I’m doing there, chasing the rams and just be in these places. A lot of readers can resonate with that because they get to special places in the woods and yet you’re hunting deer. When the sun comes up and the owls are hooting or turkeys are coming off the roost or whatever happens in your neck of the woods, it becomes real to me. It’s reality. I’m part of this whole plan and that’s my two cents on that.
The one thing I have brought up, I hunt a little bit different from our traditional. I have a stand that it’s a great stand. I only hunt it from 8:30 or so in the morning to about noon. It’s a great little transition area. It’s an area where if I go in there when it’s dark, I tend to bust deer. Yet the deer are used to some human activity because it’s on a farm. My parents who live out there do walk and hike on occasion. I can walk by deer and as long as I’m natural about it. I could find my way into this great little honey hole. I almost always will have decent deer walking by me at that next timeframe when they typically are moving again, which is going to be in that 9:00, 9:30 in the morning.
I do a lot of morning hunt. I rarely will walk in the dark in the morning just because on the farm, it seems that we have a harder time getting to some stands. I also do some late afternoon hunting over these strategic areas, especially as we move along into the season. I’ve got the good variety of forages in the food plots. We get the does and fawns out there. The bucks will tend to come out there closer to dark, but yet we do have the best of all situations out there. It’s been a lot of work, yet it’s rewarding. To see a lot of healthy deer, no matter if you’re talking mature bucks or just the does and the fawns out there. I feel a part of their nutrition, what I’m offering them. I love seeing a lot of healthy deer.
You said you wanted to talk about looking ahead and some interesting forages. What’s that all about?
I did bring up my book that’s called From Soil To Success. I do like to get through to people on things like your pH, how important it is, organic matter, the proper fertilizers but then going back to unique forages and the right genetics. When people who have been to my education plots have watched videos or seeing pictures on me talking about and showing people the differences in genetics, the right genetics for your area and some ways newly improved genetics will resist disease. Some of these forages will also help resist insects, which means those plants will be healthier. Healthy plants tend to uptake nutrients. Healthy plants tend to be higher in protein, higher in sugar, higher in minerals.
My 2017 lineup will be a lineup of unique, perfectly-blended forages. We’re also coming in with some other forages that few people know about, few people have seen and few people planted. Yet at Grandpa Ray Outdoors, myself, the field staff and people throughout the US have been testing them. A couple in particular fodder beets, plantain, which are two that are pretty overlooked. I’m going to come out with two more cold-tolerant annual clovers. As I touched on before in one of the talks with you, swedes. Few people are using swedes. They’re used to turnips. Some people are aware of rutabaga. I am happy with the swedes. We are coming out with forages in blends that they are the next level that is trying to maximize, no matter if you have a quarter acre, acre, ten acres. I come from the managed and such a grazing mindset where no matter how many square feet you have, affords that you’re going to plant for your deer. Maximize it. Let’s get the most out of what we have.
How do we do that? I’m thinking of the farm. I was thinking the logging trails, we never get that done. May or June, I’m going to have to go up there and get the job done. You and I had talked about that last year. It didn’t get done, but I’ve got permission to put stuff on the logging trails. You want to maximize what you have. We’ve got agricultural land all over the place. It’s over 600 acres, 800 acres of the farm. I’m trying to think hayfields. It’s probably 40% timber.
All the rest is agriculture because they run both beef cattle and cows on different parts of the farm. I’m thinking, how do I maximize what I’m going to do or what we’re going to do on the farm? We’ve got mini-plots and micro-plots. We didn’t do the logging trails. How do we maximize what I’ve got? Whether it’s a twenty, 40, 60, 180, and 240, whatever. How do I maximize that? What plan do I have to put out?
That’s what I pretty much am trying to get across with my book. What I also am demonstrating with the various education plots and test plots. What can you do? Have healthy soil by having the right pH, enough organic matter, and having the right fertilizers out there. By doing those three things, you’re going to be typically increasing your growth by about 20%. It could be as much as 50%. Planting genetics, there’s a big difference in genetics as far as average pounds of dry matter per acre.
Yes, some places like Georgia and Mississippi have done different trials with brassicas, but there’s not a lot out there. That’s what you’re going to be seeing some videos on. The one we will be shooting where I’ll be doing scissors cut analysis. Showing people that, “If a deer eats this forage, how much more nutrients are they getting out of it with every bite?” Genetics makes a difference. Having a healthy soil makes a big difference. Having the right fertilizers.
The next level two which I’ve been demonstrating is using foliar plant foods in the upper Midwest. There’s a lot of rain and the guys that put their fertilizers down, part of that got washed away or leached away. Scout year crops. Think like a farmer. Farmers are always out there scouting your crops that are you seeing insect pressure? Are you seeing plant disease pressure? Are you seeing nutrient deficiencies? If you are and you’re not sure what to do, get ahold of me. I will give you recommendations on, “Should we use foliar? Should we come back in with another two bags? 100 pounds of a triple 18 dry fertilizer? Should we be spraying for insects? Should we be using a fungicide?”
Few people do that in the wildlife industry. Most progressive crop farmers do. A lot of the tips I’m doing, when I’m reading a book, shooting videos, or blogging are to get more people to think like a progressive farmer. All of that makes a big difference. Many people could be leaving 20% to 50% potentially on nutrients you can be provided to a deer on the table by not doing these little things that do not cost that much money.
If I’ve got 40 acres, I’m going to put in micro-plots. I got a path going into my stand or my stands. Unfortunately, we’re creatures of habit. Over the years, the deer know where the stands are because they know where I walk in and walk out. That’s one technique if you’re doing that. If you’re taking the same path to the same stand with the same wind, change it up. The deer, as soon as you close the door or put on your headlamp, I don’t recommend. You’re going to close the door, but I don’t recommend putting on your headlamp. You’re going to change it up. What I started to do in some of the stands is we got North, South, East, West entry points. You change it up and you make it different. You try to confuse the deer. Your thoughts on that, John?
Some people, like you, said they do the same thing. There can be a time and a place, as I mentioned, for doing that. Yet, wind direction is important. I’m not going at the same times, scent control and cover scents. For example, it’s a little tip that I’ll give here is one of the showbiz sponsors called The Hunter. We came out with a cover scent that is a formulation that I’ve used for many years. All natural, organic blend. It’s natural to deer. When people have used that or if it were legal, if you’re using a deer mineral, my Ultimate Deer Mineral has got the same smells, flavors, those deer do get used to that. That can also help the cause.
When you walk in, having things that are natural. If you are in that stand using cover scents. What I’ve also seen because I get a lot of properties. People have me go out there and look. I looked at stands that have been there a long time, and I’ve convinced people to slightly move them, even if it’s only ten, twenty yards. Think like a deer when you’re walking down that logging road. Think about if you’re a deer and you look up, are you in a stand that’s too close to that trail? Are you right on the trail? I strongly recommend like you said, is move the stands periodically. It might be only every two, three years.
Do not leave them in the same spot. Have someone else scout your stands for you. What I mean by that is you think you have these stands in a great spot? Have a buddy, have another expert, and have somebody come down in these areas after the season. Get a take from them on, “Where would you put a stand?” It’s like any good marketing company. Scout yourself, get another opinion. As a hunter, have another hunter scout your hunting plan. That’s overlooked in the industry.
Think like a deer when you’re walking down that logging road. Share on XFolks, if you don’t have a hunt plan, I don’t care if you’ve had the land for 50 years. I’m going back to Wisconsin and we’re celebrating 50 years of hunting in the same farm. No, I didn’t hunt all 50 years obviously. The family that owns it sure as heck has. It’s amazing how we don’t change it up enough. I love the concussion stand. Why? When we put it up, there are so many concussions. We called it the concussion stand. That stand takes bucks year in, year out. Doesn’t take mature bucks though. I’ve noticed that year after year. I’ve seen some nice eight and ten-point buck that’s just two and a half, three and a half years old. They’re not four and a half, five and a half. That’s my hunt plan. I’m 70 years old. If somebody needs a deer, I’ll go out and shoot a doe. When the neighbors need some food or whatever, we’ll do that. We do shoot does and give it to the farmer, give it to Eddie and he’s got a lot of summer sausage and jerky.
Over the years you again get these habits. You need to have somebody scout your stand and think like a deer. They’re going to be coming 45 to the wind and coming through. I’ve seen and heard from my guests that by doing exactly what John said, moving your stand ten to twenty yard. We’re not talking about getting out of the area because obviously the deer go through there and you want to be there. If you change it up a little bit, one the deer goes, “There’s something different,” because they do notice where your stand is. All of a sudden, he’s gone. After a few times if they don’t see your stand, don’t hear you in your stand, you’re going to have an opportunity that you might not have got. That’s my two cents worth.
One other thing I’ll chime in on is from observation experience. I killed a decent buck a couple of years ago because of creating a transition area and a scrape line. Many people, if you observe how the does and the fawns are moving, this is especially during the gun season. Those smart, old bucks typically do not just run out of that woods chasing after the does, “Let me see the does.” In the plots, they’re going to stop, look, watch and take some time. What I did a couple of years ago with that in mind is I moved more of the food sources a little bit off the edges. I love having the clovers in the scrape lines along the side. What I did has we had a little strip there? It was beans, soybeans that were left. The rest of the field was harvested, but there’s a little area there that was left.
That smart, old buck, what he did is that he stayed. Instead of standing inside the woods or on the edge of the woods, he felt a little more comfortable to walk out about ten yards, fifteen yards from the edge of the woods because he felt safe. There are some beans aren’t really tall, but they were left there. That’s how I got him. That’s something people might want to think about too. Beyond food plots and beyond where your stand is, don’t think like a young buck. Think an old, mature buck and how he acts. What is a trick that you could do to get him to take that extra couple steps a little bit earlier? Both of the deer I shot out of the Grandpa Ray stands, the last two bucks, were right around in the afternoon. Both of them we did do those little tricks, just made them feel a little safer. They didn’t come to walk in way out in the middle of the field or out in the food plots, but they came out far enough that I was able to have success.
I’ve heard some guys leaving some Egyptian, and you’re going to help me out with the crop, but it grows really tall. It definitely makes the deer feel secure. They made lines through small openings. Not food plots but regular agricultural land. They made some swaths and with Egyptian. I think plantain grows high too, doesn’t it?
Not really, but they have Egyptian wheat. Egyptian wheat is a turn. They became accepted as the popular form of screening. There are a lot of people that thought they’re using Egyptian wheat but they weren’t. There wasn’t much to be had out there, so some products were sold as Egyptian wheat but aren’t. That being said, there are different options. Any sorghum that will stand tall and not lodge is good. For example, our mutual friend, Brad Jones with Scrape Line Hunters, he’s one of these guys that taught me a lot. I saw a screening mix they call fortress which also has some shorter, WGF grain sorghum, millet done with Egyptian wheat and the tall sorghum so it gives you different tiers of height, which helps it stand. Plus, it can give you some cover. The point is you can have a ten, fifteen-foot wide strip of your screening, Egyptian wheat, whatever product you’re using, to help get you into the stands, to help create a funnel.
We are creatures of habit. Share on XI like having a strip and then either not planting a little area or going out there with a lawn roller or a weed whacker, and then create a little opening closer to your gun stand or deer stand. Those deer are going to use that. Even if it only gets you another five, ten yards closer to your stand, trying to help dial those deer in. Making them go where you want them to go, very expensive, very important. I’ll post it here on my website how I got what I believe is the perfect group plot, funnel screening scenario. I owe a lot to Brad because he’s one of these guys has been doing this for years. He helped a lot of people, great with helping direct deer where you want them to go.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is Bruce Hutcheon your host at Whitetail Rendezvous and John O’Brion from Grandpa Ray. We finished part one and we’re going to run a part two. We’re going to continue talking about making a deer go where you want them to go, screening because there are so many techniques. It’s a lot of information out there. By sharing this on the show, you’re going to get educated and that’s what one that John, he’s a whiz-bang at. That’s the end of part one. We’re going to roll on part two.
Make sure you tune in to part two of John O’Brion, Grandpa Ray Outdoors. He’s going to be talking about creating funnels, creating pinch points and creating a cover so you can get to your blind or your tree stand without being seen. How does he do it? He does it with something called Egyptian wheat. He does it with a lot of tall growing forage-type products that he knows works. He’s got a great friend in Wisconsin that’s helped him figure out how to do this and how to make the right crops for the right situation. To have deer move towards your stand, Brad Jones is his friend that’s helped him with this. Stay tuned and it’s going to be a great show.
Important Links:
- Grandpa Ray Outdoors
- From Soil To Success
- Ultimate Deer Mineral
- Scrape Line Hunters
- Grandpa Ray’s cart
- The Hunter
About John O’Brion
Seed Sales since 1991
Independent Ruminant Nutritionist since 1991
Helped introduce generic roundup into the US
Guest Speaker for M.A.T.C adult agriculture classes
Wrote the book “From Soil To Success”
Wrote the book “The Perfect Acre”
Feature speaker at Milwaukee Journal Sentinal Sports Show
Feature Speaker for the Wisconsin Deer and Turkey Classic
Feature Speaker at the Louisville Deer and Turkey Expo
Conduct over 20 seminars a year across the US
Columnist for Legendary Whitetails
Columnist for Safari Club International