LISTEN TO THE PODCAST HERE:

Derek Peterson; founder, owner, and manager of Peterson Cartridge Company

Welcome to another episode of Whitetail Rendezvous. This is your host Bruce Hutcheon and today we’ve got a special man on the phone because he’s going to talk to us about match grade brass. His name is Derek Peterson, founder, owner, and manager of Peterson Cartridge Company. Derek, welcome to the show.

Derek: Thanks for having me, Bruce, I appreciate you having me on the show.

Bruce: So Derek let’s start right off and you were telling me in the warm-up about why the company, Peterson Cartridge, came into being. So let’s start right there and let’s roll with the foundation of your company for the next few minutes.

Derek: Sure Bruce. So again, I’m Derek Peterson of Peterson Cartridge Co. So I’m one of the founders, one of the owners, and I’m one of the managers. And we got started in making brass casings for the ammunition industry back in 2013. We’re located out of Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania to be specific. And it all started in the Fall of 2013 when we were looking for brass for ammunition for hunting. I personally hunt with a .308 and a .243 and so my father and I were looking to find ammunition, couldn’t find any as you guys all remember we were in the center of the [inaudible 00:01:37] and the throes of the big ammunition shortage. One of them in the recent past. And my father went to me and said, “We’re entrepreneurial, find a way to make ammunition.” So we went to our first show which was the NASGW show, the wholesaler’s show, and that was in October I think of 2013 and we went and talked to some folks at the show and said, “We’re going to make whole rounds.” And they said, “Well, you can if you’d like but you’re going to not like your life very much because you can’t find any components.” And so we took that information and me and my father went out in the hallway and said, “So, we can’t find any components. Why don’t we make brass? That’s one that everybody seems like they can’t find.” So we went back in and said okay, we’re going to make brass, that’s what we’re going to do. And we talked to a lot of people and they welcomed us in with open arms. “You’re going to make brass, we’d love to talk to you.” So that’s basically how it got started. After that we did all the research on what machinery we wanted to purchase and to make the brass and where we wanted to set up our shop, and what calibers we wanted to make and so that’s basically how it got started. It all got started from, we couldn’t find hunting ammunition. And so we figured we’re going to find a way to help fill the demand and make our own.

Bruce: So ladies and gentlemen we’re going to unfold the show because I’ve been reloading for quite a few years, I’ve got a couple of guns and I found that reloading helps me get accuracy. And my rifles shoot very well, If they don’t then I sell them and get a rifle that shoots well with the loads that I can make. The one thing that I was talking to Derek was, I don’t know anything about brass. I’ve bought brass from Midway or Cabela’s or someplace. I got bunches of brass and got 1,000 or 2,000 brass cases for all my calibers and I really don’t know about brass. So Derek, walk us through why match grade brass, not just what you buy from Midway, but actually match grade brass, is so important for accuracy.

Derek: Yeah, sure, happy to. So I’ll hold off on going into our process and our quality control and I’ll talk about what makes match grade brass and why it is important to shooters and hunters alike. So our tagline is match grade brass. And so what makes match grade brass go by the name is able to be used in a match. Whether it’s an F-class match or just any other kind of match. It’s consistency. And so consistency leads to accuracy and also precision. So precision, putting the next shot as close to the last shot as you can. And accuracy being how close to your intended target do your shots fall. So a casing is just this sealed pressure vessel basically. It’s sealed on both ends, then the primer and then the thread top, and depending on how much powder you put on in the casing, you’re going to vary your pressure on the inside when it goes off. And you’re also going to, because of that, you’re going to vary your velocity of your projectile. And so that’s going to change your trajectory it’s going to change where you hit on the paper.

the name of the game for us as you were saying, is consistency

And the name of the game for us as you were saying, is consistency. How close can the casing that we made 20 seconds ago or 2 seconds ago come to the casing that we made this second? And so that starts down with our machinery and starts with our quality control process. We purchased machinery that is unlike anyone else. It’s a lot slower but man is it accurate. We start off, we have a very in-depth lab, we have a complete metallurgical lab so we test all of our inbound raw material on the way in, so we start with [inaudible 00:06:03] and then we do all of our testing to that whether it’s grade, structure, hardness, or we’ll do a composition analysis or a couple of other dimensionals of course, tests. And then we’ll go into our draw processes. So we’ll draw the casings out into their final elongated tubes and then we’ll roll them through and do the pocketing and heading where we put our name on the back and also create the primer pocket, and then we’ll go into the back and do all of the finishing operations. How they extract the grooves, the tapering, the casing, and then we’ll go into piercing the vent hole, trimming up the [inaudible 00:06:44] and finally doing the finishing on the mouth and neck to allow for more reloadability for the shooters.

And so all along that way of casing we have a lot of different quality control steps in place. That ensures that the casing you get at the end is going to be what you had expected. And so that’s how we make our match grade brass. So as far as linking that with what’s important to the shooters and hunters is consistency. So the more consistent the casing, if you’re measuring and the general equipment that makes it, you’ll get a more accurate shot as long as you’re weighing out your loads, your powder, and you’re selecting your primers and you’re weighing your bullets, your projectiles. It means if you’re going for that elk at 500 meters, you’re going to get that elk. As long as your gun’s capable of hitting that elk, your bullets and your casings will hold up their end. So that’s basically how they’re all linked together, Bruce.

Bruce: Let’s go back to the word reloadability. So I go to XYZ company that sells brass by the truckload and like I said, I’ve got 30 ought 6 brass, that was the first rifle that I bought that’s my oldest rifle. It still shoots wonderfully. And how many times can I use the brass from manufacturer X? And I don’t know who the manufacturer is. So manufacturer X. So typically if I go to somebody online, say, “Hey, I want 1,000 rounds, 500 rounds,” I have no idea what kind of brass I’m getting do I?

Derek: No. Well you normally worked out what you’re going to get, but you don’t know what kind of care they took to make it. A lot of it comes down to your raw materials. And so we use, in our industry, the ammunition industry, casings are made out of C260 which is cartridge brass. As an aside, if your listeners get the chance, they can go to our website, it’s www.petersoncartridge.com and we have all of our steps on how we make our brass casings listed out on the website. We also have all of our quality control procedures listed out. And so it can give a viewer, or listener in this case, a really good idea of exactly what our process entails and how we start with slugs, basically cups, and it ends up as finished casings.

So you were saying about reloadability. Sorry about my tangent. So reloadability. So with the standard casings that you get from one of the big four, we won’t say their names, but they usually get, depends on how hot you load the casings, you usually get between five and twelve reloads. As we did our testing to make sure that we were going to comply with SAAMI which is our governing body, Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer’s Institute, that we are going to comply with their specifications as far as dimensonals and being able to stand certain pressures inside the casing. So we did our testing and our casings consistently, have consistently tested in the 20s. We don’t guarantee that by any means or by any stretch, but we have tested them in-house and at maximum SAMMI pressures using IMR powder 4064, we’ve loaded out the SAAMI suggested max pressures and we’ve gotten 20 reloads.

Bruce: That’s not using compressed loads, though. So they exceed SAAMI maximum.

Derek: No, that’s not using compressed loads. That’s just SAAMI standard max load.

Bruce: And listeners, there’s guys out there listening to the show that know a heck of a lot more about reloading. You can talk to Derek all day and that would be good but for some of us, sometimes we find if we just go a little bit above the SAMMI max pressure that all the books have, that my groups are tighter. But I wear out my brass quicker if you shoot a lot, I’m just going to say with hot loads, you’re likely your barrels can be impaired. Is that a correct statement, Derek?

the hotter you load, the harder it is on your equipment

Derek: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The hotter you load, we use that term, the hotter you load, the harder it is on your equipment. So it’s all a trade-off, everything in life’s a trade-off, right? So if you put more powder in your casings you’re going to wear your barrel out faster, you might not always but you can, there’s that possibility. And your casings tend to just not last as long. They are only brass, so they’re not field casings. So brass has a lot of benefits. One is it doesn’t hurt your gun as it cycles through and things like that, it’s not steel on steel kind of thing.

Bruce: Well we can reload it. It’s malleable, we can reload the gun.

Derek: Exactly. That’s one of the benefits of brass is it’s reloadable. And so we, I guess how do I want to say this. I could explain if you wanted me to all the different things that happen to a casing upon firing with the head expanding, the primer pocket expanding, the side of the case walls expanding to the chamber and then coming back a little bit. They’re still in elastic deformation, the casing sidewalls are going to come back in so the casing can be cycled out of the gun. So as you and your listeners can imagine the hotter you load, the harder it is on your casings. You’re going to split [inaudible 00:13:18] you’re going to basically work them, you know brass softens, and so the more you work it, the more brittle it gets. And that’s where it causes casings to split. And most guys probably know that is that every time you fire a casing it expands and contracts. And so it’s the heat over time and so the hotter you load it the more it expands, the more violently it expands I should say, and then it fatigues faster.

So some guys that want to load up to 3,000 feet per second, you’re not going to get as many reloads as guys that want to load at SAAMI maximum pressures. But then again like you were saying, the benefits of loading hotter are that you get tighter groups. So it’s all trade-offs, basically.

Bruce: Hopefully you’re taking notes listeners because this guy knows his stuff. Obviously yes, he makes match grade brass, but there’s so much into it and if you don’t reload, think about it. Yeah, there’s some great loads out there, manufacturers have figured it out and said, “Wait a minute, they’re taking all sorts of different bullet manufacturers and saying, ‘Hey, we’re going to work with this and we’re going to make some darn fine loads.'” And I have seen store bought loads come to the range and guys are shooting good groups, I’m not going to say they’re going to shoot SUB MOA but they’re pretty darn good. Would you agree to that statement, Derek?

Derek: Yeah, absolutely. So the main difference, I personally reload, as you can imagine, and the reason I reload is because I’ve seen how commercial rounds are made. And so they’re made using powder drops. And so powder dispenses differently in different humidities, so they’re not actually weighed. The charges aren’t weighed, in the vast majority of commercial rounds. The casing comes in, your primer’s put in, your [inaudible 00:15:26] it comes under the powder drop, the powder chute is opened and closed for a set amount of time and then the casing moves on. And so they do a great job controlling that powder drop time with the opening and the closing of the powder chute, but it leaves something to be desired that you just can’t get unless you hand load.

Whenever I hand load I weigh out my projectiles, I find the ones that are closest in weight, I weigh out my casings, find ones that are the closest in weight, and I weigh all of my charges, to make sure that they’re all exactly the same down to the tenth of a grain of weight, and then I make sure my bullets seated exactly as far as I want it seated in.

And so there’s just some things you can customize for your gun during handling that you just can’t do buying factory rounds. I know it’s easier to go to the store and just pick up a box of factory loaded rounds from one of the big four, and that’s fine, however, another big thing is, so the length of the loaded round is very important and so not all guns are the same. So SAAMI steps are pretty wide. And one of the things that you can get with a hand load that you just can’t get with a factory load is that you can increase or decrease the length of the loaded round to be custom to your gun. And so you basically get your chamber gauge, and you’re going to figure out the exact length of your chamber and then you’re going to get a bullet, or get a casing, you’re going to match your casing to your gun, you’re going to match your loaded round to your gun, so the bullet [inaudible 00:17:28] is seated right just touching the rifling and so you can do that when you do a hand load whereas you can’t do that when you’re just buying factory loads because they’re made to fit in everyone’s gun, right?

And that’s what SAAMI does, that’s the governing body for all of us. They made sure that if you, customer A, walked in and you bought a Ruger, or you bought a Remington and you walked into any store in the United States, any reputable store, and you purchased loaded rounds, from a manufacturer who is a SAAMI member, those rounds are going to fit in your gun regardless of who made your gun. So that’s what really SAAMI does and it’s a good thing that you have that guarantee as a consumer that if you walked into any store and you buy loaded rounds from a reputable company you know they’re going to fit your gun. So that’s the benefit. The downside is they might be too small for your gun. They might be the wrong overall length for your gun. They might not be custom tailored to your gun. They’re not going to be custom tailored to your gun. The only way to get that is to load your own.

And where that comes into play is when you’re talking accuracy. If you don’t mind being off six inches or five inches at a few hundred yards with what you’re shooting, or maybe a foot at a few hundred yards, what you’re shooting, what brand you’re shooting, then factory loads are okay. And some factory loads work better in some guns than other guns. And some guys’ll be able to attest to that. But if you’re trying to optimize the accuracy of your hunting rifle, the best way that I’ve found to do that is to make sure that you’ve got a [inaudible 00:19:34], you’ve got a really good trigger, and a nice action, and a really good barrel, and then a nice optic on top, and you hand load your own. That’s what I do because I really want to get as best accuracy as I can out of my hunting rifle.

Bruce: Hey Derek, we were talking earlier about you’ve got a funny story about hunting whitetails and accuracy? So can you share that with us?

Please subscribe, rate and review  http://getpodcast.reviews/id/1032967565